Curse

Ensign · Feb 16, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Tentatively with a bit of obs and testing, the Djinn Haste changes were bad, Pious Haste questionable (recharge hit would have been better) but good overall, Enchanter's Conundrum very good, Power Leak good though I'm still wary, and Death Pact Signet good.

Victory is Ours is still a testament to A.Net's inability to reject bad ideas.

Divinus Stella · Feb 16, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

The changes to flame djinns wont change a lot, you will still find people running fire ele gankers just so they can run around all game attempting to get an NPC advantage for ViO. Aslong as the speed buff keeps them infront of the crip shot they are pretty safe.

They really do need to remove ViO, but anet dont like to admit they make mistakes so they usually play around with it for a while trying to fix it while to community gets more and more tired of being ignored.
It was the same with 6v6, it was obviously hated by everyone, but reverting a change would be admitting defeat.

I dont think the designers even consider HA with the balances anymore, its about as competative as AB's.

Ensign · Feb 16, 2008, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

The changes to flame djinns wont change a lot, you will still find people running fire ele gankers just so they can run around all game attempting to get an NPC advantage for ViO. Aslong as the speed buff keeps them infront of the crip shot they are pretty safe.

Flame Djinn's Haste needed a hit to uptime, not to raw movement speed. Lower uptime forces them to time the beginning of the speed boost better (less 'always up'), and punishes by having it run out if they do not, at which point they have to stop, recast, and leave themselves susceptible to being caught and snared. The change from 33% to 25% does not affect the skill at all from a GvG perspective.

From an HA perspective, the change from 33% to 25% is a serious nerf. That's the difference between a 15 second relic and a 16 second relic, an unacceptable difference when you're often playing for 1-2 seconds at the end of the match. That makes this a seriously problematic change, because options for running relics have been relatively limited to begin with (predominantly Djinn Eles and "Make Haste!" Gons) and are even more limited now.

Changes that are of only a minor, if any, benefit to one format, but a significant negative to another format are bad changes overall. They changed the wrong aspect of the skill, and the game is not better for it.

If Storm Djinn's Haste was a problem, it was because of how well it worked at low spec and how long it lasted, similar to Flame Djinn's Haste. To that end the proper change to the skill would be to take a significant amount of time off of the bottom as well as a bit off the top. I don't know why Storm Djinn's Haste is getting a lot of hate, as I haven't seen it used in any serious capacity in months. With a nerf to Pious Haste though, taking Storm Djinn's Haste down a notch would make a bit of sense since it would naturally move to replace Pious Haste.

Pious Haste was an issue, entirely because of how there was nothing in the game that could catch a character with Pious Haste; as a stance, it lacked the casting time and vulnerability to strips that makes enchantment-based movement buffs a much more fair mechanic. Of all the speed buffs this one most needed a change for its power on a ganking character; however I feel the change missed the mark somewhat by hitting the duration instead of the recharge. It would match up much better and more fairly at 5d, 8r at 0 spec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

They really do need to remove ViO

Big swingy effects like ViO should *not* hinge upon advantages as small as a single archer. If there was anything wrong with VoD before, it was VoD being too powerful, not the other way around. If anything you would want to rebalance GvG mechanics to put more emphasis on advantages building up *before* VoD, and not further entrench the idea of 'build up a few incremental advantages and win with them at VoD'. Every change that makes GvG more about VoD advantages is yet another change that is not even aiming at the right target.

6am3 Fana71c · Feb 16, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Didn't fixed everything we asked for, but step in right direction. Keep up the good work, guys.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's the difference between a 15 second relic and a 16 second relic, an unacceptable difference when you're often playing for 1-2 seconds at the end of the match.

Relic run has bigger problems, i.e. glitchy rubber-banding body blocking and a retarded scoring system. The entire format needs an overhaul.

Div · Feb 16, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Relic run has bigger problems, i.e. glitchy rubber-banding body blocking and a retarded scoring system. The entire format needs an overhaul.

It's the same problem as taking any item from point A to point B. You'd get the same rubber-banding while flagrunning, but GvG is generally less crowded than HA, so it's slightly better. The server lag is always there, and is annoying.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

It's the same problem as taking any item from point A to point B. You'd get the same rubber-banding while flagrunning, but GvG is generally less crowded than HA, so it's slightly better. The server lag is always there, and is annoying.

GvG maps tend to have fewer microscopic choke points. The problem isn't so much the lag as the fact that the net code does not resynchronize player positions unless you specifically move to a point or object. This isn't a hard problem to fix either (unless their netcode is terribad). My point though is that the format is so screwed that it needs a lot more than just adjustments to the speed boost skills.

Oh yeah, and of course, ViO needs to go, or at least scale with the NPC difference.

Quote:

It would match up much better and more fairly at 5d, 8r at 0 spec.

I'd take Dash over that.

Ensign · Feb 16, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

My point though is that the format is so screwed that it needs a lot more than just adjustments to the speed boost skills.

I don't disagree, but changes that make things worse without helping elsewhere aren't quite what you're looking for. The changes made actually hinder the skills in the roles that you want to encourage (catching people) without significantly affecting them as over time run around skills; on the other hand hitting the durations on those skills would have the opposite effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd take Dash over that.

I don't think there's anything reasonable that you could make Pious Haste that you wouldn't take Dash over. 5d 7r would be pushing it offensively and I doubt I'd take that over Dash either. Unless you want something else from Dervish it just isn't going to be something you'd take in a balanced state - I think the utility you want to target with it is on Warrior/Dervishes with Rending Touch or the like. At least for secondaries.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think there's anything reasonable that you could make Pious Haste that you wouldn't take Dash over.

It's going to be a hard one to balance as long as it's in Mysticism. There are a couple routes to take in line with other Dervish skills:
- Lengthy recharge, pull an enchantment on activation, if an enchantment was pulled, insta-recharge
- Negative secondary effects if not enchanted, i.e. gradual energy loss.

EDIT -- Not that I don't think the enchantment cycling thing isn't clunky as all hell, but it gives you a drawback you're forced to deal with.

Syron · Feb 16, 2008, 10:43 AM // 10:43

The big problem with ViO is it gives you a 10% boost wether you have 1 more npc or 10 more npcs.

What about changing it to 2% for each npc you have more than your opponent?

2% or 4% won't do much, as both teams already have 25% at VoD, but if you manage to have a huge npc-advantage you'd still be rewarded.

ViO's strength should also be dynamically adjusted if npc get killed/farmed after VoD imo.

Another bad thing would be the reintroduction of health-loss at VoD. Increased damage helps everyone. It doesn't matter if you're running spike, pressure or split. But less health boosts spike-builds more than pressure and split and i don't think a caster-spike meta is desirable.

just my thoughts...

Kaon · Feb 16, 2008, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The change from 33% to 25% does not affect the skill at all from a GvG perspective.

Eh... What? Now warriors can suddenly keep up or catch up (as flagger). Rangers can also have a 6 seconds of catchup before they crip. Their retarded mobility has finally been toned down a little. The speedbuff changes are really nice and I think the best change on this update, you couldnt nerf storm djinns and leave flame djinns intact.

That it screws over HA, well tbh i dont know and dont care. Windborn speed used to be in every single tombs build.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 16, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Now take up the rest of my suggestions as well and the game would almost be balanced!

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Would it be safe to drop Windborne Speed to 1/4 sec cast?

jaeharys targaryen · Feb 16, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Would it be safe to drop Windborne Speed to 1/4 sec cast?

gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Make_Haste!

Lorekeeper · Feb 16, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

if high mobility flaggers was the problem then they just needed to change pious haste so that it couldnt be kept up 24/7 on anything but a dervish primary with relatively high mysticism.

That was done. Good job. Mission accomplished? Far from it.

I think the point Ensign is making is that regardless of how long or how short a time it takes flaggers to transit to and from the base, morale boosts and the subgames that surround flagging matter far less now. The flag stand fight has become largely irrelevant before VoD, with only a few teams sticking to 8vs8 orientated builds. ViO remains the carrot that lures teams away from the fight at the stand towards enemy bases to kill NPCs. Consider also the state of 8vs8 play recently, the spike meta. Teams stubborn enough to remain at the stand banging heads against other 8vs8 builds might possibly be able to inflict meaningful death penalty on key opposition players but what good teams will actually remain at the stand if they felt they could not prevent spikes going through? The answer to situations where spikes at the stand are going through is to split or to turtle... so even if some spike builds were able to crack through defensive walls, the rewards from splitting or turtling still remain vastly more attractive than accruing needless DP at the stand (thats even assuming DP was a distinct threat, which is rarely is between 2 good teams).

Lets not forget Ensign's point about the stand being more able to survive without the aid of its 8th player. Team builds are designed to allow 5-2 5-3 or 7-1 splits, with the flagger often being the responsible for keeping the smaller split alive... Back when there was a higher interdependance between the flagger and the stand team... pushing for flaggers had far higher repurcussions.

* For one thing the old Eprod flagger templates were far more fragile than what you see today, especially before mending touch was introduced. Pushing for those Emo runners achieved alot, because they were less able to defend themselves and therefore required far more attention from the stand team than a flagger would do today.

* Old flaggers had responsibility over party healing for the most part, meaning that integrated into their transit runs was the need to stop and cast a few heal parties in order to top up bars. Pushing for a flagger therefore meant 2 things... not only the threat of preventing that flagger from reaching the stand but also the threat of preventing that flagger from supporting the main team with those important party heals.

* With flag transits being more fragile the stand also took a hit in its own stability because of the lack of party heals that were so necessary vs pressure (vs hex builds flaggers would even stop flagging entirely to HP spam). And deaths at the stand mattered so much more because once a team was pushed back it was incredibly hard to get that flag out (far harder than it is today with Weapon warding rit runners and aura stability).

* We didnt have death pact signet back then, and most good teams clamped down hard on things like rez chant mesmers (even sac rez chant wasnt that reliable with its long recharge), suffering a death at the stand caused far more emergency than it does today. Suffering a death at the stand because the team had to pull back to protect its runner was a common sight... only teams were less capable of recovering from such events given the overall nature of skills at their disposal (no more rezzing monks at full energy + no flaggers that could run through teams relatively untouched + no more high reliance on party healing flaggers + no more highly robust flagger templates)

This volatile part of the game has disappeared, it was one of the interesting tactical aspects of GvG. GvG has moved away from that continual push and pull at the stand involving the flagger, towards stand fights where teams wait for that all important interrupt or diversion to go through before they can do anything meaningful. This is all a result of the stand team becoming less reliant on the flag runner as a defensive tool and flag runner bars becoming more self reliant.

This is why skill balance relating to the 8vs8 fight has become so crucial. Split play disappeared somewhat during the LoD blockway era, with teams hugging tightly onto their ward and aegis chains, things they had become so reliant on during the eurospike era (you have to pack incredible amounts of passive defense to survive vs grenths, melandru, spiritual pain, shadow step spikes). With Mending touch, the return of Crip shot (back to 10 energy) and rit runners helping to phase out the eurosplit (generally a warrior, BHA ranger, rit).

And then teams suddenly found a far more accessible method of glyph sac meteor showering NPCs at VoD... with splinter weapon. 8vs8 fights before VoD just became stalling periods, with teams just avoiding major DP and making sure they didnt lose too many NPCs. Splinter farming NPCs with melandru dervishes even made gaining NPC advantage unnecessary.

Then VoD got pushed down to 18min and just nailed the coffin in dynamic GvG gameplay. With less time to find a way through an enemy's defense waiting for those diversions and interrupts to finally hit through fake cast aegis and wards... teams just gave up... the LoD nerf update removed their comfort zone at the stand, creating a security void that made teams even less willing to play aggressively at the stand (monk bars fell back to the old RC+Power heal combination that was far more reliant on eachother and an external party heal source than SoD+LoD bars were). The LoD nerf necessitated even more defensive support from the midline that perpetuated the blockway 8vs8 mentality by forcing such immobile interdependencies onto the meta (motigons).

''Victory is Ours!'' is a clumsy new addition that casts aside all of the above observations about the evolution of GvG 8vs8 meta by granting such an insane amount of extra damage to teams who get NPC advantage before VoD. Before the update teams would sit comfortably in their layers of defense, with little or no intention of making strong pushes to force a fall back in order to kill a few NPCs or win morales or deny flags or DP out key characters... they had little time to figure out how to do such things, all safe in the knowledge that they could simply attempt to out splinter farm NPCs their opponents. Generally the team that pulls off the best aggro on NPCs and wipes them out sooner looks to gain the upperhand at VoD, management of that small period of time at VoD when the NPCs approached the stand therefore became one of the most vital aspects of GvG play. Why did sineptitude become so effect during this period? It's ineptitude mesmers made frontline characters useless at the stand and caused huge pressure on backlines which made them less able to keep the team up vs continual NPC pressure. Its assassin splits and ineptitude mesmers could pick off isolated NPCs with ease and most of the time secure a minor if not a major NPC advantage. So teams adopting the popular stall until VoD tactic saw both their strategic aims countered.

With ViO and apparently far better NPC AI pathfinding, this has changed (not to mention the nerfs on ineptitude and clumsiness). Teams can no longer farm NPCs at VoD in a matter of seconds, not only that but teams stand to gain a huge advantage for VoD if they managed to kill just 1`more archer than the opposing team before. The result? Teams running builds designed entirely full of skirmish gankers, running around the map like headless chickens (organised chaos) in order to force positional mistakes by the opposing team so that they can dash in and kill 1 NPC and dash back out. Thats not even the worst part of it...

What use is pushing for that morale when even a distinct morale advantage isnt guaranteed to win you a game. I watched a match where a team held the upperhand the entire game, securing multiple morale boosts and scoring multiple kills on an opposing team and denying the opposition any boosts of their own you wouldnt be called a fool for believing that team to be the better one. It turned out however, that they had somehow lost 1 more archer than their opposition, a result from a very early gank by a ranger at the start of the game (which is common on druids isle). They thought they would be able to steamroll their opposition because of their morale advantage, and they had most of their NPCs still alive, they still lost at VoD because the opposing team got the +15% damage boost. Ive seen it happen alot. Its stupid that 1 team can clearly display its superiority through the majority of the match, only to fall victim to a ridiculous VoD mechanic that rewards a difference of merely 1 archer.

It happened to me and my guild, only we were the ones who benefitted from it. We faced a dedicated sin split on nomads isle. With my split team being inexperienced we suffered deaths on the split throughout the match, giving morale boosts to the opposition because we were forced to fall back because of a wipe on the split. I called for a strong push into their base by adding an extra person on the split and they managed to push deep and kill some NPCs. At the stand we were unable to win morale or prevent flags from being run in, even at VoD we found ourselves out maneuvered by the sins and once again had to push back to base. I asked a simple question at around 17min, how many NPCs did you kill? The answer... we killed 1 more than they did. The result... ViO for us and complete dominance at the stand versus a team with a distinct morale advantage and 30+ DP on 1 of our frontliners and our flag runner. Now i fully accept that they should have sent a gank to our lord as soon as our NPCs had left our base, but the dominance we enjoyed at the stand was ridiculous to enjoy considering the control our opponents had over us the entire match.

The point im trying to make is that a constant 33% speed boost is quite an insignficant aspect of skill balance to deal with when you consider EVERYTHING else that has happened to GvG over the years, with ViO being the most recent example.

Its not that i dislike or disagree with the skill updates to these skills... its just i hope that there are far more important ones to follow that deal with the issues head on.

Stop biting around the crusts of the pie and get to work on the meat in the middle.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaeharys targaryen

gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Make_Haste!

Windborne Speed would appear to have some more use offensively. Well, assuming you're using anything other than a Warrior that's already carrying Rush. Oh wait...

Point just is that I think Windborne could probably use some love at this point. :P

Kyp Jade · Feb 16, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

I like the buff to spiritway teams. They now have better running skills than most balance teams do.

RaO is 25% boost instant cast.

Balance teams only option to keep the same running times is make haste.

Ensign · Feb 16, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Eh... What? Now warriors can suddenly keep up or catch up (as flagger).

The effects of these changes on flagging is non-existent. See my previous post. This isn't even addressing the fact that this update didn't touch the best speed boosts for flagging templates at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Rangers can also have a 6 seconds of catchup before they crip.

If they had their speed boost precast you still aren't going to catch them. If they have to cast it in your face you'll still catch them. Max range cripshots against people moving faster than normal only catch retards. What exactly has changed here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Would it be safe to drop Windborne Speed to 1/4 sec cast?

Always has been safe to buff. I'm not really sure why it hasn't when stuff like Whirlwind or Chilling Winds gets meaningless buffs, Windborne is one of the most interesting speed boosts available and it's a shame it's been languishing for so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

I think the point Ensign is making is that regardless of how long or how short a time it takes flaggers to transit to and from the base, morale boosts and the subgames that surround flagging matter far less now.

That was the first part of the point. The second is that increasing the amount of time that it takes to move a flag by 3 seconds is not going to affect that at all. The speed boost changes matter entirely from a gank/countergank perspective, where 99% of the difference is to Pious Haste. Fire Eles are marginally weaker at catching people with Gale now, and marginally more susceptible to Hail Mary Cripshots, and that's about it.

Riotgear · Feb 16, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The effects of these changes on flagging is non-existent. See my previous post. This isn't even addressing the fact that this update didn't touch the best speed boosts for flagging templates at all.

Weren't Storm Djinn's and Pious Haste the best speed boosts?

ax mastery · Feb 16, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syron

What about changing it to 2% for each npc you have more than your opponent?

2% or 4% won't do much, as both teams already have 25% at VoD, but if you manage to have a huge npc-advantage you'd still be rewarded.

I'd like to call a bit more attention to this suggestion. I think people missed it the first time....

But isn't the main problem with ViO the single archer extra type thing? This would still make it worthwhile to effectively split, but wouldn't be game ending, unless one team is far more effective than another (in which case the game probably won't last till VoD).

Does anyone see a problem with this?